Comment by Bolverk
> You want to be responsible for making people healthier?

No. When did I say I want to make people healthier? What makes you ASSume I give a crap about YOUR health? I care about MY health!

I don’t care if you or anyone else uses motor oil on your own food. Go for it! Use weed killer for all I care! Use anything you want on your own food (just don’t Jim Jones anybody else in the process… Mmmmm! Trust me, the cool-aid is GOOD)!

But when YOU and YOUR ANTI-AMERICAN ILK think YOU have the right to FORCE ME to eat anything I don’t want to, YOU’VE got got another thing comming!

Comment by Bolverk
> James, the whole point is not about the fact that trans
> fats are bad for you, duh…
>

Good, I’m glad that we both agree that you are in favor of making irrational decisions for yourself.

As is your right.

Just don’t make them for ME!

Comment by Bolverk
> regulation increases prices, period, end of story.

Very good, you get an A+ in 5th grade economics.

And CONGRADULATIONS! You managed to repeat what I said about costs! Yaaaah!

Refrigeration costs $$, vacuum sealing costs $$, making your staff wash their hands costs $$, all that raises the price of food! So what? If cost is king, then using your logic, all that should be optional! But it’s NOT! It’s MANDATED! And WHY? Because we’ve learned that corporations will try to get by with anything they can to make a buck! Slavery, murder, piracy! They all had to be outlawed because there will always be someone who believes that if it’s not illegal, it’s not wrong!

If you TRUELY feel that way, where’s your moral outrage about the laws forcing food prep staff to wash their hands after using the restroom? “Damn government making my cook wash after wiping! That just puts hair on your chest!”

You seem to believe that any underhanded, dishonest, and unethical trick should be legal. That ‘the market’ is the only legitimate method of making legal, ethical, and economic decisions. And if you can trick the market, that all is as it should be.

Luckily our founding fathers disagreed with you, and saw fit to put limits on the powers of corporations.

People have a RIGHT to make the assumption that a product is as advertised, and when they go out to eat that the food they are eating is ACTUALLY FOOD, and not some poisonous INDUSTRIAL BY-PRODUCT.

Comment by Bolverk
> Enlisting the government to impose your beliefs on people
> is not a positive goal, it is counter productive and
> anti-American.

I couldn’t agree more.

So stop trying to legalize the addition of poisons into my food supply. Then your political and economic views will be in alignment.

Trans-fats are a poison. Not only that, but they are a CUMULATIVE poison! They DO NOT LEAVE YOUR SYSTEM.

We didn’t know that they were a poison before, but science has progressed, and now we do. That’s the nice thing about knowledge, keep your mind open, keep asking questions, and you can get wiser as you get older. Keep it closed, and you never stop being ignorant.

As far as controlling people’s lives, and making them live the way you want them, I don’t suppose you never noticed that the world someone sees says more about THEMSELVES than it says about anybody else.

Check that big fat log in your eye first, bud.

Food Techie again:
> I hate to burst your bubble, but the “little bugs” aren’t responsible for
> good fats gone bad. That would be rancidity caused by oxygen and light
> and sped up by heat. Mold won’t touch liquid oil either because micoorganisms
> require water to survive and oil and water don’t get along. Nice try, though!
> Maybe educate yourself before you become a fool.

Can’t speak to that, but why don’t you do a little experiment:

Put a stick of butter and a stick of margarine or Crisco on the sidewalk by your house, wait and see which one nature has cleans up, and which one nature has left alone.

Dogs, cats, bugs, birds and/or whatever will eat up that butter, but will not touch the hydrogenated vegetable oils.

Mmmmm! Good Eats!

Comment by Bolverk:
> 1.) Trans fats may cause pre-mature death, but this will not effect your
> health insurance like you think. Why? Because the most costly point in
> time for health care is when you are dying of old age. That’s right, a
> proven fact. The greatest burden and cost put on the health care system
> is by people who live to be old.

Don’t care! (Don’t get me wrong, I disagree, but it’s irrelevant to my argument. Have you forgotten trickle-down economics? That a rising tide raises all boats? Etc etc? My argument is not an economic one, just pausing to knock down this straw-man.)

But again, you seem to think that $$ is God! It’s the end-all and be-all of ALL your arguments! Stop worshiping at the alter of the all-mighty $$$! Look beyond that idol and see the people you want to impose your views on.

Why does money give YOU the right to tell ME what I have to eat if I choose to eat out?

Why do you believe that money gives you the right to say I MUST EAT POISEN if I choose to eat out?

Comment by Bolverk:
> 2.) Automobile accidents are the number one cause of death in this country.
> By your logic of protecting people from themselves, all automobiles should
> be banned. You should all have to take public transportation, no private
> vehicles should be allowed on the highways. Just based on your logic of
> saving people from themselves.

I think this is silly, but I will try to explain to you the differences between an automobile and a meal.

1) You do not eat an automobile. (Unless you are the Klinger character on MASH) *ha ha ha, that was a funny*

2) Common sense tells you that automobiles are intrinsically dangerous. You can see they are large and heavy, and travel at high speeds. While it is true that you expose involuntarily those around you to the danger of your automobile when you drive one, we as a society have chosen to accept that the benefits of the automobile to society as a whole outweighs their drawbacks.

Before cars, the horse (and horse and carriage) were also dangerous. And also obviously so, the car was viewed as an upgrade to current technology.

3) There is no natural, common-sense assumption that a meal is dangerous. In fact, the opposite is true: There is a natural, common-sense assumption that a meal IS GOOD for you!

That means that it is unreasonable to expect the consumer to assume that something presented to him or her as FOOD is in fact poisonous.

I was going to ignore Mark, but I think he very suscinctly argues the point that most pro-trans-fat people want to make. They certianlly keep dancing around it:

> The Government could care less about your health, what they DO care about is
> controlling us! Do the words socialism and communism come to mind?

The problem is that when they put it in such plain English, it just sounds so Una-Bomber of them it makes you wonder how they get the Internet up in their un-wired, electricity free, Montana cabin. (Not to disparage Montanans. Just their bad luck.)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/05/01/unabomber.cabin.reut/index.html

And THAT’S all I’m gonna say about THAT.

But let’s take a look at some of the horrors of the dread regulation you fear:
===================================================

How about lead water pipes? In 1986 the US government outlawed the use of lead pipes to carry drinking water, something still used DISPITE the fact that the effects of lead poisoning had been known for well over 200 years!
http://www.engr.uga.edu/service/extension/publications/c819-14c.html

In fact in 1786 Benjamin Franklin wrote that the dangers of lead had been known for at least 60 years, yet “you will observe with Concern how long a useful Truth may be known, and exist, before it is generally receiv’d and practis’d on.”
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1451228

==

How about lead in paint? Do you believe that manufacturers should be allowed to add lead to paint? Lead paint was outlawed here in the states in 1978.

==

How about lead solder in water pipes? That was outlawed in 1988.
http://www.epa.gov/safewater/wsg/wsg_H19.pdf

==

Oh, lead solder used to be used to solder the lids of cans on, perhaps that practice should be resumed?

==

Hmm. Let’s ignore lead, and look at some of the other evil stuff regulation has done:

After the use of coal burning stoves was outlawed within the city limits of London, their famous ‘Pea-Soup’ fog disappeared.

==

Between 1930 and 1960 the Chisso Corp of Japan dumped and estimated 27 tons of mercury into the ocean, DISPITE it’s illegality. It was not until 52 people from the village of Minamata died and over 100 more became seriously ill that public pressure (not economic) finally caused the government to clamp down on Chisso, and stop the process. Birth defects continue to cripple the children of the village to this day.

http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih2/chemicals/guide/pdfs/NIH_environment.pdf
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/member/member.html?nn20041016a2.htm

==

In the pre-dawn hours of the December 3rd, 1984 morning, an explosion in the Union Carbide chemical plant in Bhopal, India, sprayed the pesticide methyl-isocyanate onto the sleeping residents of the city Bhopal. By dawn, the released pesticides had killed 5 thousand people and injured more than half a million. Today thousands are still sick, and more than 50,000 are disabled due to their injuries. This is a disaster that could have been avoided, IF the company would have followed the laws and regulations they would be required to follow in the U.S.. But they had moved to India SPECIFICLY TO AVOID those regulations, and you see the results. ( BTW, the abandoned factory remains today largely as it was left the day the Union Carbide employees fled for their lives, sacks of pesticides left where they fell in the store-rooms and grounds, leaking into the local groundwater. )

http://www.india-seminar.com/2004/544/544%20gary%20cohen.htm
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oswer/ceppoweb.nsf/vwResourcesByFilename/97report.pdf/$File/97report.pdf
http://yosemite.epa.gov/oswer/CeppoWeb.nsf/vwResourcesByFilename/incenAss.PDF/$File/incenAss.PDF

But I suppose that this is a vast conspiracy of the Indian residents of Bhopal, that they didn’t suffer, it’s just the largest workers-comp fraud in history. Right?

Or is it that 3M’s right to make money exceeds the right of the Bhopal residents to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

==

Mad Cow disease was caused by feeding cows the left-over slurry from slaughter houses, a cheap way to increase the protean content of cheap cattle feed. That’s been outlawed.

Interestingly, the current administration REFUSES to give beef exporters the right to test for mad cow. That is why Japan sill (I believe) bans American Beef! Why don’t the exporters have the right to test for anything they want?

==

Oh, the Chinese practice of putting Melamine (a mineral found in slag left over from coal mining) into low quality wheat flower to, again, artificially (and fraudulently) raise the rated protean content:

Menu Foods (the US Importer) was NOT going to report the contamination, or recall their product even though they were aware of the deaths, but instead were simply stone-walling and refusing to admit a problem until IAMS informed them that IAMS would do a recall regardless of Menu Foods actions. Interestingly, the FDA also did not act until IAMS forced their hand by announcing their recall, the actions of a conscientious and moral company.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/229064/chinese_admit_adding_melamine_to_pet.html

Is it really ALL a conspiracy? When you get information from so many different sources that jive with each other? Or is it a conspiracy when you have to go back to your one or two ‘trusted sources’ to get the ‘real’ poop?

Sorry to burst YOUR bubble.

Regulation such as city and county regulations are indeed the will of the at least a majority of people living in those areas. Or of officials elected by those people.

It surely is in direct opposition to individual liberty via capitalism.
The argument that seat-belts must be worn or trans fats must be replaced comes down to an issue intertwined with health care expenses that are paid by taxes. So peoples habits do have effect on other peoples wallets.

That is, in order for the majority to live well, even the minority must suffer regulations. ( I am not arguing that a true majority legislated these laws but they can have them overturned if they so desire).

If we should remove regulations like this, or not entertain them then we should also repeal drug laws and indeed all victimless crimes.

The broader knowledge in these regulations is that these habits do indeed effect other people.

To fix the situation we could remove all social healthcare programs and allow people to ingest whatever they please.

That means no emergency rooms for people without insurance, no health care for children of poverty etc…

Certainly these are not the only issues involved (and are somewhat exaggerated) but I think they begin to illustrate what a broad spectrum of issues are intertwined in social regulations.

I think it is important to look at the larger picture and the broad scope of interconnectivity between peoples instead of declaring either socialist or individualist philosophies as supercedent truths.

What this country needs therefore the very most is a return to rock solid education in the basics of language, math, history and science and questioning and reasoning skills.

Most arguments here have seemed very narrow ‘one way or the other’ viewpoints that do not really take into account a world of factors.

Luckily many posts also show a great deal of thought.

The whole point is about government regulation. All regulation increases prices, period, end of story.

We can force the restaurants, food makers and others to comply with consumer demands without the government.

Using the brain god gave me, I understand that this is not about protecting anyones health, that is just how they present it. It is simply about control. If there is a demand for healthy, inexpensive food that can be made quickly, someone will fill that need. That is what is so nice about this country.

However, people like you prefer to use force, and make people comply with how YOU think THEY should live. And that alone is anti-American.

You want to be responsible for making people healthier? Open a fast food restaurant that serves food at inexpensive prices to the poor. Then you will be doing something positive. Enlisting the government to impose your beliefs on people is not a positive goal, it is counter productive and anti-American.

And just like all the little bugs that spoil food find trans-fats hard to stomach, we do too. Except THEY (apparently unlike some people) have the sense God gave them, and AVOID eating hydrogenated oils. THAT’S why they take so long to rot / spoil. (You ever seen a can of Crisco with mold on it?? The fact MOLD won’t touch it should tell you something!)”

I hate to burst your bubble, but the “little bugs” aren’t responsible for good fats gone bad. That would be rancidity caused by oxygen and light and sped up by heat. Mold won’t touch liquid oil either because micoorganisms require water to survive and oil and water don’t get along. Nice try, though! Maybe educate yourself before you become a fool.

–Food Techie again

1.) Trans fats may cause pre-mature death, but this will not effect your health insurance like you think. Why? Because the most costly point in time for health care is when you are dying of old age. That’s right, a proven fact. The greatest burden and cost put on the health care system is by people who live to be old.

2.) Automobile accidents are the number one cause of death in this country. By your logic of protecting people from themselves, all automobiles should be banned. You should all have to take public transportation, no private vehicles should be allowed on the highways. Just based on your logic of saving people from themselves.

The info IS out there, you just have to search.

Or do they have the right to make and serve food with that stuff on it?

I’m sure it’d cost less if they didn’t have to make sure your food was clean.

Not a _single_ _one_.

That’s because trans-fats didn’t exist in measurable quantities until we decided to see what happened if we tried to make a foamy mess out of vegetable oil and hydrogen gas.

Mmmmm! Hydrogen! The cornerstone of a balanced diet! (NOT!)

Hydrogen did TWO (and only two) useful things:

1 ) First, it thickened the oil. And we soon learned that by varying the amount of hydrogen we add we can make it simply thicker (partially-hydrogenated), or solid (hydrogenated). This is handy because a solid is easier to transport than a liquid.

2 ) We also soon realized that all the little bugs that by eating stuff, make it rot, find hydrogenated oils hard to stomach. This translates into a longer shelf life for foods made with hydrogenated oils.

And just like all the little bugs that spoil food find trans-fats hard to stomach, we do too. Except THEY (apparently unlike some people) have the sense God gave them, and AVOID eating hydrogenated oils. THAT’S why they take so long to rot / spoil. (You ever seen a can of Crisco with mold on it?? The fact MOLD won’t touch it should tell you something!)

If arsenic delayed spoilage would you demand that restaurants have the right to serve you food laced with it?

Of course, pre-made foods WILL cost more, but spoiled food is free.

If all you care about is the price of food, i.e. you don’t care how unhealthy the food is, there are dumpsters full of cheap (read FREE) food all around the country. Most of it probably still mostly edible. Have at it!

God, I wish people would try EDUCATING themselves about a subject before taking a freaking no-hold’s barred, “You’re a Nazi loving Commie!” attitude!

Stupid people a born that way, that’s their excuse.

Ignorant people just haven’t learned, but they can fix that.

But those of you who WON’T learn make me sick. And unjustified pride in your ignorance just proves that you’re wasting the most precious thing that God gave you: your brain.

If God hadn’t intended you to think and learn, he wouldn’t have wasted the space above your neck with a brain.

Gina:”somebody has to make that disscions for us.” I hope that you have no children and I pray that you never breed. You must have been educated by the government school system ( Public Cesspools). God help us! Please don’t have any children, please…Oh and if what I have said, “offends you”, tough, get over it.